Author Topic: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?  (Read 12433 times)

Lnewqban

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Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« on: December 01, 2012, 12:35:36 PM »
Using the cool season of Florida (we don't really have a winter down here), I have been practicing and improving to the point that my ride has became smooth, controlled and relaxed.

Now, I can turn very close to full steering lock and can flick the bike really quickly from left to right lean and vice-verse.

However, I feel that I have hit a wall: according to the chicken strips for my tires, I am stuck at the same lean angle and consequent maximum speed.
It may just be a mental barrier (I may be too chicken to push beyond my comfort zone), .........but it has been a very difficult and persistent barrier.

How to increase speed and lean angle in practice as to reach decent times in the G8?
Currently, the 35~40 seconds range seems unachievable to me.    :-[
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Motogymkhanaman

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 05:56:37 PM »
The answer is to not try to increase speed and bank angle at the same time, but do either one or the other.

Best results are when you go slowly around the pylon. Bike will remain balanced as the turn will be much tighter.

Lnewqban

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 11:17:42 AM »
I believe that both (lean angle and speed) are interdependent during any turn, even a minimum radius turn like around the pylons.

It is not that I want to drag footpegs, but it seems to me that time can only be reduced by increasing the average speed during those five 8 loops, which subsequently would increase the lean angle.

It is maybe that the speed between pylons is the one to try to increase, focusing on tracing the minimum radius around the pylons at a moderate speed?

Please, correct me if my approach is incorrect.

Thank you much for your prompt response, Motogymkhanaman.
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Motogymkhanaman

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 06:02:44 PM »
Getting the bike turned through 180 degrees as quickly as possible at each end increases the ratio between time spent turning and the time spent blasting between the pylons.

Lnewqban

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 09:43:08 AM »
Sorry, I am still confused.     :-\

Turning time / Straight time = Ratio increases if speed around the cone increases => Turning time increases at higher speed?

Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Is there a unique speed for turning at full lock?

Yesterday, I practiced turning at full lock only.
I noticed that a little release of the rear brake opens the turn (increases the radius) and straight the bike up.

My question is if I could force the bike to stay at minimum radius and full lock simply by leaning more (which I have been afraid to do), so the bike covers the circular trajectory in less time.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 10:03:51 AM by Lnewqban »
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Oleg Gorbachev

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 10:48:15 AM »
Speed is forcing to put bars strait. I believe we need to find maximum speed at which we can keep bars in full lock. Exercise called rotation can help. 

Motogymkhanaman

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 11:48:08 AM »
Probably got my increases and decreases a bit mixed up, but it remains that the quicker you can change direction through 180 degrees, the sooner you can get on the gas for the fast (straight) bits.

Oleg is right in that practicing the rotation turn will help you to increase the rate of direction change. The target time for a 360 degree rotation is 2.5 seconds, so a 180 turn should take roughly half that plus a bit for the capsize and recovery phases.

Lnewqban

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 10:28:36 AM »
Great !!!

Thank you both very much.    :)
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Lnewqban

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 11:04:39 PM »
Speed is forcing to put bars strait. I believe we need to find maximum speed at which we can keep bars in full lock. Exercise called rotation can help.


I have found this vid that shows that clearly:

GSX-Rで手離しクルクル
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 11:07:20 PM by Lnewqban »
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Vulfy

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 06:58:55 PM »
I'll play a bit of Devil's advocate and say that it all depends on a turn.   A full 360 rotation will involve a slower speed, maximum bank angle and full lock on the bars. 

However watching this video,  you can not argue that he is doing 180 degree turns at VERY fast speed, at VERY high bank angle, but I'm sure of it, he is not getting his bars to the full lock. 

I think this is exactly what  Lnewqban is talking about and trying to achieve. 

第202回 へなちょこライダー走行会16 ことうさん トライカーナ

GymkhanaDog

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2013, 12:39:53 AM »
第202回 へなちょこライダー走行会16 ことうさん トライカーナ


To be fair, it looks like he's running racing slicks which are incredibly sticky and wouldn't be street legal in most places. The performance due to the choice of tires he's using over the choice of tires that (I think) most of us are using isn't even comparable. The size of that rear sprocket to get incredible drive out of the corners, paired with those tires, is a recipe for sticking to pavement like a gecko. I would also argue that his rounding of those corners may not be as fast as they could be, but he's got the drive and tire for the lean angle to look impressive.

I personally run Dunlop Roadsmart Sportmax on my SV650 and Pirelli Sport Demons on my CB700SC. Neither tire choice, despite being extremely suitable for street and intermediate track riding, would instill enough confidence in me to try what he's doing with the glue that that he is using for tires.

I've been learning over time that mastering the 180 maneuver doesn't necessarily mean being cranked over with the bike so much that you're ready to drag knee, but to be smooth and let the bike do the work. There is certainly a maximum lean angle at which the bike will self-balance at a given speed while at full lock as shown in the previous video with that GSXR, but remember one of the first key, universal rules that you learn when riding; You are a movable counterweight. As a a counterweight, you can keep the bike up when it wants to fall in. The GSXR rider displays that well, I think.

As with all things, YMMV. :)

xpertsnowcarver

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2013, 05:48:42 PM »
I'll play a bit of Devil's advocate and say that it all depends on a turn.   A full 360 rotation will involve a slower speed, maximum bank angle and full lock on the bars. 

However watching this video,  you can not argue that he is doing 180 degree turns at VERY fast speed, at VERY high bank angle, but I'm sure of it, he is not getting his bars to the full lock. 

I think this is exactly what  Lnewqban is talking about and trying to achieve. 

第202回 へなちょこライダー走行会16 ことうさん トライカーナ


My best friend (owning a 2011 GSXR750) and I tried this on his bike yesterday. Its weird but Ill try to explain what we felt in comparison to both the video and my father's 2004 919.

750 - Couldn't lean as much as shown in the video in 1st gear idle rpm. It was only until 2nd gear and up or speeding up in 1st we were able to lean it over as much, but not achieve as tight of a circle. In addition, we simply could not get the bike to the balance point where it can hold a turn on its own without rider input. (Tires: BT-003)

919 - I can lean as much as shown in the video through all gears, and I can also make nearly as tight of a turn in 1st. I am almost able to let go of the handle bars and balance my weight to keep the bike in a tight turn, with little to no input.  With practice, I'm sure I could do it. (Tires: Pilot Power 3)

Video - It appears as though the gsxr in the video has a greater lock to lock steering range and maybe a different sprocket. In comparison to my friend's gsxr, once we reached the point of steering lock, there's no way to turn the handle bars further to pull out, causing us to throw our foot down or bump the throttle. (You can see in the video the rider leans in further, which would cause the steering to turn in further, pulling the bike out. Therefore the rider does not have the bike at full lock.) When we tried increasing speed or idling in 2nd, we reached the lean angle but the radius was wider. But, clearly the rider isn't bumping the throttle to keep the bike from dropping, proving that the rider is not at full lock. The steering is free to turn out to increase lean or turn in to decrease lean.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 05:57:17 PM by xpertsnowcarver »

Vulfy

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 10:30:03 AM »


I doubt stops were modified on GSXR.  You definitely need higher idle speed so bike doesn't  choke, or maybe a throttle lock. 
I'm still trying to learn this, but my current throttle lock is unreliable for lower RPMs (it slips a lot) and I can not adjust my idle on the injected SV650.

Interesting point from the video above, is that he lowers his back tire pressure a lot! 18psi I believe.  I haven't tried that and don't know how much it helps, but seems to be working for him. 

It seems to be a popular trick/exercise with Japanese Gymkhana riders.  I've seen a few other videos of them doing this, but don't have them in my playlist unfortunately. 

f3racer

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 02:06:39 PM »
Speed is forcing to put bars strait. I believe we need to find maximum speed at which we can keep bars in full lock. Exercise called rotation can help.


I have found this vid that shows that clearly:

GSX-Rで手離しクルクル


this vid worked out great for me except one thing. unless i crank up miss piggy's idle i cant take my hands off. that big v-twin lurches at low speed and makes it feel like your chopping the throttle.

Lnewqban

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Re: Help: How to increase speed and lean angle in practice?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2013, 08:22:54 AM »
..............Video - It appears as though the gsxr in the video has a greater lock to lock steering range and maybe a different sprocket. In comparison to my friend's gsxr, once we reached the point of steering lock, there's no way to turn the handle bars further to pull out, causing us to throw our foot down or bump the throttle. (You can see in the video the rider leans in further, which would cause the steering to turn in further, pulling the bike out. Therefore the rider does not have the bike at full lock.) When we tried increasing speed or idling in 2nd, we reached the lean angle but the radius was wider. But, clearly the rider isn't bumping the throttle to keep the bike from dropping, proving that the rider is not at full lock. The steering is free to turn out to increase lean or turn in to decrease lean.

Joel,

It can be at full lock and still be able to counter-steer using body weight to make the bike lean more and to stop the rotation.
The thing is that, due to the geometry of the steering, the more you lean the bike at full lock, the smaller the radius of turn becomes.

Check this out:
http://amgrass.com/forum/video-pics/tire-arc-deviation-disscussion/msg430/#msg430

If speed remains the same and radius get smaller, the greater centripetal acceleration rolls the bike out of lean and the bike returns to a more or less stand up position and straight trajectory.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 08:36:28 AM by Lnewqban »
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.