Author Topic: Vulfy's video thread  (Read 27827 times)

Springer

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2012, 10:00:29 AM »
 Very cool.
Slow mo really shows everything. The riders head locking on the cone, follow the cone through the turn, and just as soon as the bike is on the final line through the turn the head snaps to the next cone for the aproch for that turn.
 Not sure about the exact time braking was applied, I am using a phone so its had to see.

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2012, 11:12:44 PM »
Latest practice.
Still posting same time  40-42 seconds for 5 laps.  I can sort of see where I can gain time, but don't have the skills to do it yet. 

06.10.12.figure8s.wmv


Was playing with more lean on the bike.  It turns tighter, but I'm losing time on the entry and braking.  Can't slow down bike fast enough for the tight entry, so forced to slow down in the straights overall.
Frustrating...

dredman

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2012, 07:54:35 AM »
your lines look really good, and smooth as well.

I bet you could cut 2-4 seconds off just by accelerating as you are turning towards the next cone, and braking just a bit later.

Great video !!
Learn to ride better before your riding days are cut short.

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2012, 12:23:36 PM »
You are absolutely right.

In this practice,  more lean on the bike gives me tighter arc and less distance travelled, which equates to faster route around the cone.  But I don't have proper skills yet to brake smoothly into this lean and proper speed from a faster straight.  This resulted in faster turns, but slower straights. 

From watching other riders, I can see how much the front suspension compresses when they brake into a turn.   There is a sweet spot in the transition from hard front brake to hard rear brake in the turn, that leaves suspension pretty stable and does not pitch it up and down.  I've hit that sweet spot only couple of times and by accident.  However the feeling is great.  The bike really dives into the turn, and both times that I've managed to hit that sweet spot,  I almost ran over the cone as I was turning around it. 

The speed around the cone is also a tricky thing.  Too much and I'm running wide, too little and bike falls over.  There is a "hover" area on my throttle that gives me just right amount of power from the engine for tightest turn.   I call it  "hover"  because the feeling i'm getting is that my bike hovers over the cone.   There is just enough speed to keep rear tire moving slightly, but its enough to keep the bike from falling over.  At the same time,  the front swings around me.  So for a fraction of a second, the bike "hovers" over the cone.

Its all frustrating, because I'm catching these glimpses of what can be done with the bike, but i don't have reflexes and proper skills, yet,  to put all of it in one coherent progression of events, that leads to a fast and clean lap. 

At this point, I think I see my milestones in terms of skills,  and its just a question of time and practice to get there. 

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2012, 04:23:09 PM »
Found this video on YouTube. 
Looks like a fun little course to set up. 

新潟 バイクジムカーナお盆練習

Motogymkhanaman

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2012, 05:09:48 PM »
That's the great thing about the Adachi System. You can make any course you like to suit the space available, grab a stopwatch and some friends and you are good to go!

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 07:21:26 PM »
Well after some time off the bike due to weather and bike being in the shop, I managed a session today.


06 24 12 37secondRuns




I'm happy.

37 seconds.  2 more to go to 35 second milestone. 

Its interesting, but I've noticed that if I practice something for a while, hit a plateau, lay off it for some time, but keep thinking about it,  when I come back, I see an improvement right away, and its not only for Gymkhana. 

Runs were pretty good overall. I'm lacking the consistency of my 40 second runs, but I'm happy with faster times.   No more butterflies in the stomach when laying her over, into the turn.   I'm noticing a faster and more aggressive flick into the turn.  Also the lean angle is a bit more extreme, as well as me able to twist the bars into a full lock every time.   I'm also managing throttle better and I can aim for the cone now, in the turn  (most of the time)  to tighten the radius, and have the cone pass right under my handlebar.   
There is less fear, and even when the bike compresses on a bump or due to braking, I'm handling it a lot more calmly and it doesn't bother me.

Throttle response also improved, I'm able to carry more speed through the turn, and being smoother with it.  Also more speed in the straights.

Videos were edited to show  right from the start where I started the timer to the end,  hopefully this cuts down on the unnecessary junk in the video and makes it less tedious to view.
I was timing these runs based on video's time code in the editor.  I started the timer when the front wheel was passing the imaginary line between the cones, and ending it, when front wheel passed that line again.   

These were not 100% accurate, but close enough for me to see improvement.
Best run was 36.27  and slowest out of THESE was  37.11
Rest of the runs through the entire session were hovering in 37-38 range.

All runs were from stand still and ended in the finish box, so no flying starts or rolling finishes. 

3 more seconds and I'll be extremely happy in 35 seconds zone.   I think I can get a second from more aggressive start and finish.   I'm also seeing that my braking does not smoothly flow into the turn.  I brake to the comfortable speed for the turn, let go of the front brake and only then flick the bike into the turn.  I think I can smooth out my entry line, and therefore smooth out my braking to trail brake longer into the turn,  which should gain me some time as well.  At a fraction of a second per turn,  10 turns,  it all adds up.

Again, overall I'm very satisfied with this progress. 

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 11:56:15 PM »
A very interesting experiment I just did. 
I spliced up my latest run, with one of top Gymkhana riders, doing the same course.
Since he is a good 7 seconds faster than I am, I froze his video right before his turns, so that my video could "catch up".
The result is a great reference between a top rider, and a beginner.  It clearly shows where I'm falling short, and where I am losing time.


stopAndGo

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2012, 10:47:10 AM »
Copy/Pasting this from my ADVrider post.

35.5 seconds baby!   ;D    So close.

Well its been a couple of slow weeks.  Temperature hovering above 90, I really don't want to get into my leathers and armor.  A couple of rides in the morning before sun started scorching the pavement, but that's about it. 
I did however managed to finally meet up with a local rider for a really brief session. Unfortunately we didn't get a chance to practice fully as our session was interrupted by rain.  However we got off to a good start, and hopefully will get more practice time in the next few weeks. 
As slow as these weeks were, they gave me a chance to mull over motogymkhana riding techniques, and process some stuff on a back-burner.  I find that sometimes when I'm trying to acquire a new skill,  my mind as well as body, needs some rest period to sort of process all the data.  After that, I sometimes see some dramatic results, after which it plateaus for some time, until next processing break.

Here are a couple of things that have been bugging me, in my own riding. 

First is the front brake.  I'm not using if efficiently enough, to keep up the speed in the straights between the cones.  I would accelerate out of the turn, but would have to chop and brake in the middle of the straight, to scrub off speed and coast to an entry speed, that allows me a quickest turn.  That way I'm loosing a lot of time in the straights, even if my turns are clean and tight. 

After reading, watching more videos on youtube, and a bit of a discussion over at amgrass, I started playing a bit more with front brake.  Trail braking into the turn.  Honestly, its not as much drama as everybody warned me about. 

Here is a good read on front, trail braking right here on ADV.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805304

So here are a few things that helped me to get to grips with (haha) front brake.

First is very simple.  Same as emergency stop, but at a speed at which you are attacking straights,   just apply all three,  rear, front and roll off a bit for engine braking.   
First  grab the front brake a couple of times.  Feel that bite and front dive. 
Then smoothly load the front, feel how much different it feels, and at which point a bike actually starts to dive, as  you need to squeeze quite a bit, when doing it smoothly, before bike really starts to slow down. 
Then,  pre-load the suspension with rear brake.  Apply rear brake, and then smoothly add front.  You will feel the difference, as the bike will be much more planted, and won't nose dive as much.
Then as you are squeezing the front brake lever,  start rolling off the throttle a bit.  Feel for that motion of the hand and fingers, where you are sort of pivoting and sliding your palm over the lever. 
Do all of these, until bike feels smooth and you can decelerate quite rapidly.  Do not stop though, as you would need the bike moving in a turn.  So just slow down, accelerate, slow down, accelerate. 

Next step that worked for me, was to get the feel of how the arm twists and stretches, and how it all feels with the fingers on the lever, in a turn.  A left turn is a lot different that a right turn, as your throttle hand is either stretched out from your body, or tucked in, close to the tank. 

So without any cones, find a wide spot of the road,  and drag the front brake ever so slightly  while you do a  big, lazy figure 8.
Just get the feel for how much the position of the fingers change (if at all) on the lever, as you move your hand back and forth, while steering the bike.   Remember you need to get a feel for the entire range of travel, of your bars. 

As you are getting comfortable,  start squeezing a little bit more.  Feel for the nuances and what the bike tells you.  Most likely you will have to pick up some speed, as you will decelerate that much faster with the front brake in a turn.  S
Start incorporating the rear and roll off, slowly, the same way you did on a straight.    You are going for a smoothness here.  Bike should not lurch forward.   

At this point its basically fine tuning your sensations of the bike.  How much pressure is needed,  how much your rpms drop and how much  you need to roll off or roll on in a turn, so not to stall the bike. Also the point and speed at which the bike tries to stand up.  Its interesting, but you will feel that with the brake in the turn, the bars will want to move to a full lock by themselves, while the bike tries to stand up.  Let the bars do their thing, don't wrestle with them, but lean into the turn a bit more, to keep the radius tight.   

Don't rush it, and give it some time.  It might feel awkward and weird at first, as well as scary.  Stick with it.  Push a bit at a time, and at the end, there really no drama in applying relatively heavy front braking in a turn, in a lean.  Its all about training your muscles to be gentle and smooth with the controls.  Fine tuning it. 

Now before you attempt any of this,  a warning.  This is a learning process, and at this point, you are taking your bike to an edge.  So be prepared to drop your bike.  If you are not comfortable with that,  practice on other techniques. 

Now the second thing that was still bugging me, was riding posture.
From a few snippets here and there, as well as observing the Japanese riders, it seems there is a certain posture for motogymkhana riding. 
When accelerating, lean forward, chest over the tank.
When decelerating, straighten out. 
It seems that these motions come partly from g-forces acting on the rider and him overcoming them.
Also it seems they are transferring weight from front to back, to keep the bike relatively centered, and not diving or wheeling too much.   I'm still figuring out the exact reasons and techniques for that.

However, here is an interesting find and my own personal experience. 

On my Speed Triple, I tend to ride it as a standard bike, with my back relatively straight, and arms relaxed with elbows pointing down.

Today I was practicing with the posture as well, and there is a noticeable different in the feel of the bike as well as control, when I'm leaning forward in a more sporty position, with my chest over the tank, and my elbows raised.  This posture allows me to lean into the turn instead of counterbalancing, while still going relatively slow and bringing the bars to a full lock.  Also, it gives me a better feedback on how much I'm turning my bars.  Feels a bit like I'm steering a large steering wheel, rather than handle bars. 

Great exercise I discovered for myself, while waiting for my rear brakes to cool, was to run same figure eight, but keeping the throttle at a constant speed, very low.  Then applying the above posture, and running figure eight, with additional rotation at each cone.  Its a bit hard to describe, as it was a multitude of new sensory inputs, but the result was much better turning, and the feel of the bike, as well as feeling for that natural fall into the turn, and bike's turning radius. 

So, chest over the tank,  elbows up and out,  throttle constant  (maybe a slight roll-on in the turns as RPMS drop),  no brakes,  lean INTO the turn. 

Try to go as slow as possible, right on the edge of the bike falling down.  Start out relatively straight up, then start leaning the bike a bit more and more, while keeping the bars at full lock, or close to it. 


Now for the session today, with all that information, heat climbing up and just overall wobbliness,  I just couldn't get into the groove.  It took me a few hours of constant riding to just wake up and finally start to get somewhere.   I got to the spot at around 6am, and only at around 9am I got a few decent runs.  Of course I was overloading myself a bit with new techniques, and just putzing around on the bike, trying this and that.
Only after I started approaching each thing separately, and braking it down to manageable and practicable pieces, did I start to get some results. 

At the end, I got a few good runs, and stabilized a bit new information, hopefully enough for my muscles to remember.  I will have to do a few more sessions this weekend and if work permits during the week, as I need to practice and entrench the new techniques, otherwise it just evaporates and I'm back to square one. 

Another good thing from todays session, is that I managed to get SUPER close to my personal milestone of 35 seconds in figure 8.  I somehow, despite horrendous turning radius on some of the turns, managed to squeeze in a 35.5 second run. 
The rest of the runs were hovering in 36-37 range. 

I'm pretty happy with this.  Here is the video of it.

07 06 12 35 5seconds

Motogymkhanaman

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2012, 11:44:59 AM »
An excellent analysis of your progression through the various techniques.

The fore and aft body movements are exactly for the reasons you describe in that it is the best (only) way of keeping the bikes pitch attitude roughly the same whether you are accelerating or braking. The requirement is to have the bike rising and falling at a constant attitude and not rapidly pitching backwards and forwards. To further help with this a lot of riders will make the front suspension much stiffer and the rear much softer. The butt back, knees in, elbows out and head up sitting position helps a lot as your elbows do not tend to resist your fore and aft movememnts as much as they would if they were pointing down.

Great stuff on the trail braking, but as you say it does take a fair bit of practice to get right. Recommend the use of just one finger on the front brake lever otherwise it will be all to easy to lock the front. The most common braking regime is with the throttle open, apply the rear first and wait a moment for the bike to squat before gradually applying the font. The rate of deceleration should then be constant as the bike capsizes to its optimum bank angle and the bike is as slow as it can go without falling over. At this point you should have spiralled in around the back of the pylon. Wait, wait, wait until the front wheel is pointing exactly towards the next turn point, when you can release the brakes entirely. The bike should instantly begen to return to the vertical and spring forward. As soon as it does you can further open the throttle. 

In your video the turns you make  between 18 seconds and 23 seconds are just about perfect as they have sufficient offset and rate of spiral to ensure you are nice and close to the pylons at the exit. If you could make all the turns like this then a 30 second attack should not be too much of a problem!
 

BillZ

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 02:50:45 PM »
Wow: V, you've been working very hard.  Unfortunately, I can't see any of the vids from work because they block that content, but from what you say, you're getting a lot of progress.  I know that you say the progress is in small incremental steps, but what your working on is light years ahead of the rest of us and, I for one, am impressed as well as envious.

I have just received my timer, and now am able to begin working toward the goal: the benchmark that you have set as a line drawn in the sand.  35 seconds.  I can only hope to make as much progress as you in such a short time.

Cudos to you, my friend!
Lean into it...

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2012, 06:56:08 PM »
Cool, I figured they were keeping the bike stable with those body transitions.  I've also started noticing that I'm doing it myself, not as pronounced, but simply from balancing the g-forces from hard braking and acceleration.
I am noticing in the videos that the fork compresses quite a bit when they are riding the course.  If they are making front stiffer, then that's a hell of a lot front braking going on there.

A BIG yes on the elbows not restricting bar movement, when they are up and out.  Really helps in turning the bike around.  Also with my chest forward, I noticed that the butt automatically moves back an inch or so from the tank.  I'll try scooting ever further back, and see how that feels.

Trail braking, yes.  A lot of minute sensations and movements are going through the fingers into the the lever and throttle.  Bike reacts a lot more to even the tiniest of input, while in a turn.   

At this point, I'm still a bit bear pawed with the throttle during the braking.  I couldn't maintain smooth deceleration to an almost idle speed while turning and braking.  The bike would either start chocking from too rapid closing of the throttle, or go wide from too open. 
I found that keeping the throttle a bit more open game me the smoothest transition.   
At this point, I realize that it is still too much RPMs for that turn, and I was boiling rear liquid pretty fast,  but I figured  my main goal was to get smoother with the lever while maintaining throttle, so I minimized that variable as much as I could. 
But yes, I definitely need to drop my RPMs down a bit at the end of the spiral.  Will be practicing on that more in the following sessions.

I'm actually really surprised at the time I managed to post on this run.  Given the first turns were completely botched,  I managed to get faster with just a few proper turns, at the end.  Really interesting.   

BillZ:  thank you.  It only seems I'm progressing rapidly.  Sometimes it feels I'm taking two steps back for each step forward.  Its fun though.  I'm discovering a lot of new stuff and sensations on the bike, and its an adventure in itself.  Start posting times when you get to it.  It really is a great indicator of personal progress.   For me most of my runs that felt "fast"  were just "busy" and were slowest.   The true fast ones, were relatively drama free, and each time I was surprised at the times after reviewing them.  It really is   "smooth is fast, fast is smooth". 

« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 12:18:16 AM by Vulfy »

Motogymkhanaman

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2012, 04:01:24 AM »
Vulfy, I thought you might be interested in the progression of one of our UK riders who is also determined to get below 30 seconds! He has just posted this video of his most recent practice and it would be worthwhile comparing it with some of your attempts to spot the similarities/differences between your techniques.

Motogymkhana 31.2 Second GP8


He rides a Z750 which has a similar performance to your Street Triple.

A good tip for gripping the throttle is to rotate the wrist so that it is directly above the twistgrip before lowering your hand onto it. That way when your wrist is in its natural position, the throttle is open rather than closed.

dredman

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2012, 09:52:33 AM »
good writeup Vulfy - congrats on the time too  ;)
Learn to ride better before your riding days are cut short.

Vulfy

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Re: Vulfy's video thread
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2012, 09:54:40 AM »
Thats awesome, thank you!
A wrist above the twistgrip is a great tip, I'm always struggling with my fingers grabbing the lever only with their tips and almost sliding off, especially when opening the throttle.  This will help me to have a solid contact with the lever. 

I like his end box with the wall and a window a the end of it...  A great incentive to stop within the box.   ;D

Dredman:   thank you    :D